Article: Rogue and Budget Decks–Underworld Dreams Part 2, David Li Wang Options

[tempest74]

Read Article here.

[Youngfella]

lol i stopped reading when your opp went t1 savage lands then t2 akroum refuge ( i thought about stopping here) you could of at least pretended.

but this is where i see you didnt really play properly is when your opp on turn 3 plays rootbound crag and just blightnings you??

i dont know about you, but if your going to do some testing against some of the tier decks at least you should do them with the proper cards or at least some proxys etc..
just a hint

i will read the rest later

ok i just read the rest of that game. and you probably need to get better players or write your articles that are actually true, if your going to be playing against that calibre of player then thats not very good, you mentioned he untapped with garruk. and then the next turn after that he just attacked you with out using its ultimate to kill you or at least make a beast or anything, either way. its not good either your recount of the game isnt what its suppose to be and there fore the validity of the article/or point your trying to get across with these games are flawed.

[Jub Jub]

Surely good games needs to quality control the aritcles they're putting out...
First of all, I played the deck on workstation just as casual type 2 and I didn't enjoy playing the deck at all... Secondly, the games the writer tested against just seems a little fictional... = = Maybe test against more popular "casual decks (i.e. Goblins, mono white life gain) and see how they stack up on the kitchen table.

[tnz]

I agree the article isn't great, needs to be quality controlled. As for underworld dreams as a fun casual deck there are much better alternatives to having fun, Sanguine Bonds coupled with a big life gain deck makes for a hoot (Filigree Angel + Open the Vaults). And if I am not mistaken is actually cheaper than this Underworld Dreams monstrosity.

As for testing against a bad casual version of Jund which only took out leeches it doesn't seem like a real test to be honest. Try testing against like Jub^2 said some actual 'casual' decks and not these half boned tier 1 decks.

So as a whole just scrap the article and start fresh cause this is a lost cause. Needs to be regulated more strictly.

[Malicious]

Yeah I have to agree... if u r missing cards for a deck, proxy them up. It's only testing... not like u're playing in an actual tournament. I don't see the point in playtesting against a jund deck that replaces leech for siege-gang... that's pretty awful. U're slowing the deck down and removing jund's most important 2 drop, for a subpar card.

It is also clear that u haven't taken on any of the feedback that u received, so this article is becoming more pointless. At the very least, try out what people have suggested... as an example, your reasoning for still playing 21 lands is weak. "Sometimes it does work out", what about the other times? I don't see how a deck can be fun if u raise the probability that u have to mulligan.

Yes there r casual players, but I think u'll find that the majority of people that read articles on this forum r serious players looking for good ideas and tech. I'd recommend to stop with this budget stuff... I don't think I've seen many positive comments about it yet. Rogue decks r fine, but stop trying to target the casual audience... which is probably close to non-existent.

[micheal]

By the way, 90% of people on this forums respond, I would assume they are casual players,

Otherwise they are just terrible serious players................

[Youngfella]

i still dont get how he t3 blightning'd you

[chan]

he used the garry wong from within

[Gibbers_1]

I just built this deck on MWS and am giving it a whirl. My first thought, however, is why there arent any mind sludges in this deck, it seems to draw a lot of land due to mines etc So a mind sludge on turn 5 knocking out all those wonderful extra cards an opponent has drawn would probably serve this deck well.

I am currently playing a match on MWS and am beating a rogue UWR atm, I havent had any mana issues so far, but I can see this deck really needing a mine or sign in blood otherwise it is toast. It appears he has sided in Walls of Reverence against me. Hes also playing cancel, sighs. It is truly the battle of the tier 2 decks!

[Wakkarr]

i still dont get how he t3 blightning'd you

Both players are bad?

Not much of a budget deck, seems pretty unfun. Proper Mono-black vamps minus fetchlannds can be had on a similar, if not cheaper budget, as the only expensive cards are 3 Bloodghasts ($10 each) and Vampire Nocturnus ($10 for pre-release).

The article seems short, lacking in detail has an overall lack of any sort of insight or thought as the there is no real discussion of the deck or of any issues. eg: The dismissal of the 21 land issue is silly, personally I think 21 lands is far too few, but at least an attempt could have been made to justify the land count.

[Gibbers_1]

I put some Haunting Echoes in the sidebaord instead of the Malakir Bloodwitches and just Echoed this dude for 30 cards in his library, the 2 fonts and 1 howling mine in play should do the rest of the job for the mill win. How random

I just won that match, via Underworld Dreams game 1 and milled him game 3, I lost game 2 but it was close. My opponent played a UWR rogue control deck with jace, ajani vengeant, baneslayer angel, wall of denial, oblivion ring, sphinx of jwar isle, cancel (!), bane fire (!) and day of judgement.

I took out the random stuff like diabolic tutor, nightmare, sorin and added 2 mind sludges and 1 extra swamp. 21 land is way too light, as the others have pointed out.

Well I am going to try and get a match vs a tier 1 deck and get some real results :)

I just went 1-1 vs a GWB ramp deck. Got massacred game 1, I think the underworld dreams aren't even needed, the mill win should be ok and 1 or 2 consume spirits could come out for better removal :) Add in a couple of Haunting Echoes main and milling shouldnt be so hard.... or just play the UW mill deck lol!

This post has been edited by Gibbers_1: Dec 20 2009, 11:10 PM

[ryoka1]

Guys, David is like 15 or 16 y/o, cut him some slack. I think he's putting quite some effort writing up these reports. He has made a good attempt to cater to our requests - we wanted match ups, so he provided us with some.

At the same time that there isnt much "pro-level" substance to the article, you also dont want to emotionally scar the boy!

[tnz]

Guys, David is like 15 or 16 y/o, cut him some slack.

You don't win wars by cutting people slack. 15-16 he should eat a brick and toughen up.

[Pezzz044]

Guys, David is like 15 or 16 y/o, cut him some slack.

considering how constructive people started out on the first article and the response he gave to these people (not me :) i came after the constructive stuff had been ignored), i think no slack is deserved.

[RedBluePlayer]

Right guys and thanks Ricky for pointing out my age (hopefully they realise I'm a different person to Ben now since they can't read and comprehend). Ok I didn't pick up the mistake my friend made with the Rootboung Crag the other day. But we were testing pretty early in the morning after a real late night out with few hours of sleep. If that was a scientific experiment, it wouldn't be an optimum test obviously with validity errors. I concede that. The point is that I put in effort and time to get to his place to write about this article to meet the demands of people who wanted testing. I was going to test with Ben Encel before FNM who is a player of a much higher standard but he had lost his deck and so I couldn't test with him, making the task I had planned earlier far more difficult and causing me to test with a friend who isn't as good. Usually when I test with Ben we play with a proper Jund deck, at GG during the day when we're reasonably fresh and we always make the best play possible.

Now to just clarify some issues, and please read them carefully before responding.

1. I usually don't test with that friend because he's part of a different play group.

2. The section my articles are under is called 'Rogue and Budget Decks' (I realise that the word budget has a very negative connotation with many of you, which it shouldn't).

The decks I write about are either:
-Casual decks for standard and therefore obviously not competitive.
-Budget versions of Tier 1 decks.
-A unique homebrew deck designed for FNM's by my friends.
-A Tier 2 deck that I've seen and is interesting and that people may want to know about.
-A deck that I've made myself such as the previous U/R control deck.

3. There is a wide multitude of distinct players in Australia. Don't be so ignorant and think there are only competitive players and casual players. It's not that simple. You've obviously haven't played Magic with enough people to understand the different types of people that exist. My articles aren't directed at one group specifically. They will vary from week to week, depending on what deck it is.

4. I am sick of the 21 lands debate. If you read the articles properly, I DID NOT CREATE THIS DECK AND THE CHOICES AREN'T MINE! I gave a brief explanation in the previous article, from what Ben told me. I don't necessarily agree with his choice, but since the deck is Ben's creation, I have to keep it as it is. If you don't like the deck, change it. The choices aren't final and you don't have to play it. I'm not forcing you to.

5. I tested against standard decks and not the regular kitchen table decks because THIS deck is a standard casual deck. Some of you obviously don't grasp the concept of standard casual. It means not Tier 1 and designed to be played against other STANDARD non Tier 1 decks, although also being able to rack up a fun win or two at a FNM. It was clear that this deck was not going to be some crazy tech that Conley Woods or Pat Chapin came up with. As for the Jund deck without the Putrid Leeches, you'll find some decks are replacing Leeches with Vampire Nighthawk, Siege-Gang Commander and Master of the Wild Hunt. It may not be an optimum choice, but people are doing it and testing their options. This was the case in the testing done with this deck.

6. If you feel my articles lack quality, then you are free to comment on that and how I can improve. I like seeing CONSTRUCTIVE criticism as seen in previous threads towards my articles. If you want to put me down, then I recommend you keep your comments to yourself.

7. If you think I'm a bad teenage player who plays casual, you're wrong. You're making far too many assertions, based merely on 1 article, which may be a misinterpretation. I do play constructed competitively occasionally, but more with limited formats. I also like to play with different people and that means playing people with different decks with different skill requirements. I have a lot of friends and they all play at different levels. For instance the friend I played with for this article is more of Standard Casual player and doesn't play limited formats. While another friend like Leon Sheldon, is more of a competitive player who has topped a few FNM's at Sydney Good Games. Yes he may not be as skilled as you are in terms of rating, but trust me, his skill level is not much worse than yours and if not better. Ben as some of you may know, is also not a too bad player. He may not be the ultimate deck designer, but he's usually not too bad. He shared this deck with me, because he thought it would be a fun standard deck to play to get a few laughs and have a break from the major archetypes. Other friends I play with, play EDH a lot, and barely play Standard.

8. If you're expecting a Star City Games Premium quality article, you've come to the wrong place. I can give you an occasional decent innovative deck like my U/R Control deck, but don't expect that coming from me consistently. If you think I'm terrible and know very little about Standard, then that's your opinion and keep that to yourself, if it's not constructive. You can recommend me to read something to improve my knowledge and I will gladly do it. Just to let you know, I do read every single MTG article and Event Coverage on the Wizards site, most of the SCG articles, almost every single article on ChannelFireball, especially those by Luis Scott-Vargas, Conley Woods and Brad Nelson and the occasional Blackborder.com article. I also spend the vast majority of my time on MTG Salvation either on Rumor Mill or on Standard. I try to adhere and learn from pro-level players but by no means am I a player or deck designer of their calibre nor will I be, and so don't expect that from me.

9. If you think this deck isn't fun, too bad. It gave me a few laughs, killing people with Sign in Blood. Different people have different tastes.

I think that sums up everything. Have a question? Ask me.