Rogue and Budget Decks – Rampin’ Up Something Hot, By David Li Wang Options

[tempest74]

Read Article here.

[Emerald]

Without sounding too harsh, that list is pretty bad and isn't going to even win FNM. However the basic premise of T2 Valakut is marginally viable as you can keep up with Jund to some extent with a decent list. Something like this:

4 Jund Panorama
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Valakut
4 Forest
10 Mountain

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Goblin Ruinblaster
4 Siege Gang Commander

4 Harrow
4 Khalni Heart Expedition
4 Rampant Growth
4 Expedition Map
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lavaball Trap

[RedBluePlayer]

The deck isn't meant to win a FNM just with that list. It is still in development stages and that's why I suggested alterations you can make.

You said the list is VERY bad but can you explain why in detail.

Your list has 3 differences in card choices, which quite frankly don't make the difference of pushing this deck to the point of having much more success.

In fact, I just gave your list a run on MWS just then and this is what I found:

Siege-Gang was decent, however it performs a very different role. It doesn't get enough damage through, instead it provides you with more time (apart from Jund where they Pulsed the tokens or Blightning-ed me) to get Valakut active. Even when you get Valakut active, your missing a few points of damage to kill your opponent, which is given by Hell's Thunder and the Burst Lightning.

Having Ruinblaster maindecked is annoying. In theory it should be very good, however you'll find with Burst Lightning, you have a needed removal spell as well as an alternative finisher. Losing Burst Lightning is terrible. I have now come to conclude Burst Lightning is 100% needed.

I do like your card choice of Lavaball Trap. I did try it for 3 or 4 games but didn't like it for the 1st 2 games but it might be ok as I had success with it against Boros surprisingly.

You'll find that with 4 Jund Panoramas, you have too many slowing you down and you won't be able to get your Valakut active as fast as you can possibly can. The extra are definitely not needed. This is one of the things I'm fairly certain of, having played several games on MWS running 4 Panoramas.

Anyway, thanks for your critique so far but as I said, my list isn't perfect. It needs alterations and further testing.

[Emerald]

Ok some elaboration.

Firstly Valakut is not built to be as fast as possible. If you wanted this there is no reason to play this deck over Mono Red or Boros. So you need to ask why should anyone run this deck?

Apart from being a budget deck the only reason to play this deck is to hit 50% against Jund in a match. This is why the ruinblasters are maindeck. I played a few games against Valakut without maindeck ruinblasters and I don't think Jund lost a single game preboard excluding those to its own manabase. Literally any combination of spells would be enough to beat this deck. Valakut is neither fast nor resilient enough to beat Jund without maindeck ruinblasters and even with them the matchup is not up.

Secondly you are correct about SGC. The card does not usually do much damage on its own and almost always less than Hells Thunder. However it is very good at being an inefficient pulse target. Furthermore, if they are going to blightning your last few cards what would you rather have on the board with spare mana up next turn.

4 Jund Panoramas may be too many but fetchlands do not fit very well in this deck so more testing is required.

Burst Lightning can probably replace Lightning Bolt if you want although the different is probably irrelevant as the deck is not worried about Malakir Bloodwitch or other common targets Burst Lightning can target that bolt cannot. The deck does not need more burn spells as every land search spell is superior to a burn spell in the late game or at least as effective and the Bolt/Bursts are only there to give the deck an early game chance against Boros/Mono Red and to prevent Jund players from pumping leech with abandon.

P.S. Bloodbraid elf is awful in this deck but still just good enough to run. However without ruinblaster it will usually cascade into a ramp spells which is a lot less impressive (and you do not want to think about cascading into Khalni). Lavaball Trap is actually really good in this deck.

[Emerald]

I guess my point about the list being bad is that I do not think this deck is even tier 2 without ruinblasters maindeck. Everything else is somewhat debatable.

[Dewman]

Does Earthquake (or another sweeper) belong in the list?

This is almost a ramp deck and the SGC are more control than anything. Plus Earthquake can be random lategame burn. Also the ability to draw a lost game is nifty

[Youngfella]

your mana base is not bad, although i would cut one forest. and also change one jund panorama for a naya panorama because of random pithing needles and haunting echoes this change makes no difference. i think you have enough resources to find a green source of mana, as most of the time you only want one forest and you never want to draw another again.

the point emerald made about the extra panoramas is valid as it serves as a instant speed removal with five plus mountains in play and valakut etc. and they also work well with the heart expeditions.

i think emerald has a point, he actually makes your deck cheaper by running goblin ruinblaster, the card is fine. at worst its a 3 mana 2/1 with haste. the only decks it is bad against are decks you are less likely to face other than vamps or ww. but you cant beat everything thats what a sideboard is for. hells thunder does not really achieve what the deck wants to do and that is ramp, t3 you want to be playing a ramp spell or playing bloodbraid elf to cascade into one, at worst it cascades into a dude and does the same amount of damage or a burn spell. like the idea of this deck is not to get a t5 kill, i think if your survive the early onslaught then you win the latter stages of the games as your spells are more powerful. trying to kill on t5 is just trying to gold fish and thats not what this deck does other wise you wouldnt be playing cards like hells thunder and hellkite charger etc. burst lightning is a card that supports your game plan of surviving the early turns, and i would be happy to see you replace siege gangs with burst, but when people kill your valakut via their ruinblasters its good to have an alternative win condition, the siege gang does that very well. you dont have to worry about pulse as that card is bad against you anyway and is usually sideboarded out. you dont not play baneslayer angel or permanents cause maelstrom pulse can hit it right.

2 lavaball trap i think is a good number, its your wrath and more LD on top of ruinblasters, theres not one deck that ruinblaster isnt fine or good against really now in type 2.

i think the list presented by emerald is alot better and focused, your deck looks a bit confused in what you actually want to do and either route you take seems like you should just be playing a different deck with some of the same cards.



your sideboard plan is fairly sound but loading out on magma spray and burst lightning and lightning bolt and fallout is a bit excessive. chandra is a good idea. as is hellkite for alternate win conditions. unstable footing seems pretty good and perhaps should have more in the sideboad for the one match up if your worried.

[micheal]

This Deck should consider Armiliary sphere, borderland ranger, Mul Daya, River Boa, Earthquake, Ruinblaster

It's too late at the moment, but i'll whip up a list when I get time.

[zeepug]

i've played this deck in a few fnm's went 3-1 then 1-3 and 2-2. Its a fund deck to play but i would consider the changes emerald has suggested, i was only playing with 2 fores but he full expanse/panorama list. with the seige-gangs and the ruinbasters as well. I agree with the others that you deck needs to be more focused, only a few changes though.

I wish i had thought on the chandra's as they would have been a good idea, i like it. with the usable footing i don't thinkthey would be useful against fog,considering that you generally kill them with valakut, but i think when you random dorks down, a good idea as you will have to mana to axe them as you said.

A suggestion that was made to me was add fogs yourself to the board against aggro decks as most of the time you only need 1 more turn to kill them before they kill you, and it works well.

[RedBluePlayer]

Oh I forgot to mention that I did try Borderland Ranger and Armillary Sphere. But Armillary Sphere wasn't necessary sometimes as you had excess lands to use. Don't get me wrong but Armillary Sphere is definitely a good card but I found it was just too much for this deck regularly. It was one of the first cards tested actually. Borderland Ranger is 3 mana get a land into your hand and opponent uses a removal spell on it. It's average.

Emerald I guess you could play Goblin Ruinblaster maindeck since its brought in almost all the time against Jund, but you really need at least 2 Burst Lightnings in this deck in addition to the 4 bolts for the early game. I agree that every ramp spell is pretty much better than a removal spell late game but you need to survive through the early game before you reach the late game. In order to do that you must have a few removal spells early on. 8 may be too many but 4 is definitely too little.

Yeah, I agree with you on SGC but with 4 Ruinblasters, and the need to run at least 2 Burst Lightning, it should be a 2 of for now.

Youngfella, great idea with the Naya Panorama despite being so small. It can come up sometimes though despite being such a specific case.

On Hell's Thunder now. It looks like a card that doesn't fit in theory because the deck does very different things. However when you've played games with it, you realise it fills a void. Sometimes you just have 3 mana on turn 4 and have nothing to do after playing something that costs 2. Hell's Thunder usually can attack for 4 during these circumstances and come back for some more damage later on. It deals some points of damage to allow your Valakut to actually kill when it goes off. The point isn't always to kill faster, but if you can kill faster, why not. The only reason why Hell's Thunder doesn't belong in this deck is because there are potentially better cards to replace it, namely Goblin Ruinblaster, which I had sideboarded but brought it in replacing it almost all the time. Now I do believe it warrants a spot in the main so Hell's Thunder has to go. However, if the deck wants to go off faster Hell's Thunder is still the better option but Ruinblaster provides the needed disruption most of the time.

And Zeepug that's cool that you've already played the deck. It would be great to hear more about your matches and match ups. I have only played 100 or so games on MWS with 10 or so variations. Your experience may also take this deck in a new and positive direction. I'm not sure about fogs but I'll give them a go sometime soon.

[Emerald]

Borderland Ranger is 3 mana get a land into your hand and opponent uses a removal spell on it. It's average.

There are 3 things incorrect about this sentence and a few more things which have been omitted.

[RedBluePlayer]

Obviously when you're extremely technical, that's definitely not what it exactly is. However, the card was mediocre at best in multiple experiences and I'm reasonably confident that the deck is fine without Borderland Ranger. If there are results that seem to justify its purpose and effectiveness with convincing evidence, I'll be persuaded to try it out again.

[Emerald]

I wasn't being technical.

[Dewman]

If I paid 3 mana for a 2/2 that gave me a lightning bolt, whilst my opponent wasted a lightning bolt or burst lightning, I'm going to be pretty happy.

Though, no one is going to waste a removal spell on a Civic Wayfinder. It's just a speedbump that stops BBE from attacking

[micheal]

I give up....


Contradictions are awsome, Excess lands in a valakut deck are bad, 2 for 1's are bad, HOW DID I NOT THINK OF HELLS THUNDER.... lol